PegB: a short list

[elly427]

Here's the thing about pegasus_b for me.

1. I am hard pressed to believe that slash and ship/het can exist in the same place at the same time without someone's head exploding, but maybe I need my horizons broadened. I'd like to see it happen. I'd like to see someone try.

2. As far as I can tell PegB has an established audience at this point, and that audience tends to like, read and write slash. That's not an accusation that someone set up the community so that it would inherently excluded het/ship writers, it's just the fact of the matter. What I see that as meaning is that there's just not a huge audience for ship/het/femslash there because people aren't interested, except for the teeny tiny group willing to read both, and the slightly larger group willing to read anything well written.

3. I don't think I need PegB to be inclusive. I don't think it should have to be inclusive.

3.b. PegB has a policy if being inclusive, and I think that's fabulous and openminded and brave. However, I do think it's okay to have a space where het/ship/slash/femslash/beastiality is not welcome, or is not widely read by the established audience.

4. I was a lurker for too many years to count, so the idea that there's a silent fan majority? I think that's probably a pretty accurate assesment of readership and fandom.

5. Fandom. Oy.

Some of this showed up elsewhere as comments to f-locked posted within the last few days.

Comments

[elly427.livejournal.com]

Thanks. It took me a couple days to come up with this in a coherent form.

And link away!

[liminalliz.livejournal.com]

Word to that.

[tafkarfanfic.livejournal.com]

Say, I like slash. I also like het and femslash. Am I not allowed to want to read all three? Because that is what I DO NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS WHOLE GODDAMN ARGUMENT!!!!

What, are NONE of you bisexual? I just. DON'T. GET. IT.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

*sighs at own uselessness* I'd read anything, you'd read anything, but it's not like all of fandom is bitextual. Just as a comm that was open but de facto All Het All The Time would probably intimidate slashers a bit in the sense of feeling they'd be imposing. Even if, say, me and you ran said comm and were perfectly happy to take anything. That make any more sense?

[liminalliz.livejournal.com]

What nos just said. Yeah.

[kkglinka.livejournal.com]

We're out there. I'd love to find a community that had lots of fic and art involving threesomes and partner swapping and everybody loved everbody without being viciously possessive. I'd love to find a community where if I posted something that involved a gender-switching mindfuck, no one got mad at me for chuckling just because their slash-goggles or slash-squick or so absolute they feel betrayed by it.

And I really hate if you speak up in either type of community, they ultimately tell to find a different group (because damn you for being noisy), like that will solve the problem.

*growl*

help! time out.

[digitalmeowmix2.livejournal.com]

*wander in* so is the problem its a good fic but the het side of the fandom feels they were left out of the good fic becasue everyone is gay yah!?


* has no idea whats going on and would like someone to just lay it out in plain english becuase shes stupid that way*

[liminalliz.livejournal.com]

*flails and clings*

[elly427.livejournal.com]

*snuggles like mad*

[nandamai]

Has there been kerfufflage about this?

Having just emerged from my post-Threads filter, I am somewhat out of the loop.

(In my mind PegB is just a place where my slasher friends like to play.)

[elly427.livejournal.com]

You've missed some interesting stuff, sort of.

Starts here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nostalgia_lj/704349.html
Goes here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nostalgia_lj/705333.html#cutid1
and here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/troyswann/207196.html?nc=56

And other places that I haven't really kept track of.

[surreallis.livejournal.com]

See, I think it's perfectly natural that some of us het writers would have gotten the gay utopia idea. My flist was full of raving about Pegasus B and all the "slashy heaven" of it. Why wouldn't I think that? And like you said, nothing wrong with that at all. I mean it's cool that Salieri came out and set things straight, but yeah...

Of the comm members I know, I know some prefer slash but have no problem with het, and others have told me they never read anything except slash and that it's a hard and fast rule with them.

I'd give it a try just because I know certain people there would be nice to me and comment even if my story sucked, but it seems easier to just write a crossover than base something in that world. *shrug*

[moonlit-page.livejournal.com]

I think the defensiveness didn't stem from the fact that you felt uncomfortable as a minority, that's just you expresing anxiety, but that a gay utopia or slash fics in general are misogynistic... I bet you use that word like once a day. Maybe it's lost some power for you. I bet you use it in papers, talk about it in class. I bet it's got a big umbrella of meaning for you -- ignoring women, making women less important, making women stereotypical, making women weak or bitchy. I bet you think that should never, ever happen in any written work ever, or in real life ever, either. I bet you could talk all day long about misogyny and you'd be able to site sources and know your shit and make fabulous points. But when you openly accuse a mostly-female authorship of HATING. WOMEN. ( and that is the very definition of misogyny ) and then lament that their slash fics don't live up to your standards of feminism... shit, I'm not even in PegB and I got defensive. Because that was OFFENSIVE. Even if tha wasn't your intention, that's the way it was presented. I'm not trying to change your opinion -- you go right ahead and think of slashers or slash fics or slash-centric communities whatever you want, you form your own opinions and you put them down in your journal, that's absolutely your right and you should. But don't be surprised when you get tapped on the shoulder for specific (untested, without evidence) accusations like that and told the reality is otherwise.
Lots of love, Roo

[moonlit-page.livejournal.com]

I just think... and I say this without bitchiness, b/c I HONESTLY like you... all this talking about what is politically correct about someone's written sexual fantasy is simply proping up your idea of what is morally correct in a work of fiction. I love slash. I like to read well written het. I'm not so keen on femslash. I'm not really turned on by graphic descriptions of women having sex. I have no fear of vaginas. I do not hate women, I do not hate myself, I do not hate being a woman. I could be persuaded to have bisexual or homosexual sex, if I loved the person. In fics, I LIKE what I LIKE, and I'm not going to defend that to anyone -- especially people who try and say that what I enjoy is exclusionary and therefore misogynistic/ racist/ homophobic/ heterophobic/ what the fuck ever. It's FANTASY. If people can't retreat into fantasy and wish fulfillment, every once in a while well, then I don't know where we're going to get the freedom to retreat. There are people who write RPS, rape fic, bestiality, incest, gay topia, slavery, BDSM, and shouta (underage) sex. That does not necessarily highlight tendancies in stalking, sexual violence, animal abuse, family abuse, misogyny, racism, psychological perversion, and child abuse. What it says is that sometimes people like to write/fantasize not about realistic things, but about taboo things. Discussion is good, always good, let's contemplate our fannish navels untili the cows come home, fine... But I feel rather than establishing a 'dialogue' about misogyny in slash fics, why aren't we picketing, boycotting, lobbying, protesting, educating, and 'dialogging' misogyny in real life? Oh, does that take too much effort? It's much easier to say that slash-fic-only is the same as women-hating (or that femslash is man-hating) than say, joining a women's rights organization to stop public executions of adulteresses in Iran or female circumcision in Africa. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm roasting you, I'm not and apologize if my word choices seem really harsh, but you assumed something about a community that COULD have been a perfect bridge between the divide of slash and ship, and then you go on about misogyny in the same post. You know what? I'm SURE there's TONS of homophobia (and self hatred) in shipper fic, but I don't take it upon myself to analyze that and then 'enlighten' the authors and the rest of fandom that the way they fantasize (in like, say, a heterotopia) marginalizes gay people and is therefore disturbing. I just write my slash. That's my antidote. Arg arg arg!!! *stabs this topic of conversation* I'm bored now. I'm not gonna talk about this again. Do or say whatever you want, it's your choice, you have a right to think and say whatever you want and I completely recognize that. If it reaches the point where I feel like you're pushing your own political agenda on a fandom or your opinion on slashers or blah blah blah nefarious-plots-to-take-over-the-world, etc. etc. -- I'll just go away and play in my own sandbox. Might as well practice what I preach. Love, Roo

[moonlit-page.livejournal.com]

Oh, what, we should just ignore fandom sexism because it takes less effort to deal with?/i>

Yes, Nos, that's exactly what I'm saying. Once we ignore all traces of misogyny in fandom, we can hurry up and write fics about women who get married to a good provider and pop out babies but never ever think about their icky vaginas again, thank God. I'm sure by now you can recognize my sarcasm, but just in case it doesn't translate over the internet -- no. I never said that. But neither should one scream sexism just b/c someone prefers their sexual fantasies to star men and men alone. I'm not sexist just b/c I prefer to read about men. Also? I'm not a banana-hater just b/c I prefer to eat strawberries. I'm ALL for deep thinking on this subject, but jesus, your post (and, even more so, some of the comments the shippers made) were like, 'oh sure, this comm SAYS yes to het, but it's really just a pat on the head, the majority will all scream their heads off or pick on us if we post in het' -- which ended up not being the case at all -- and then, tagging the subject of misogyny onto slashers backs... with no disclaimer, no specifics, just -- 'hey, I happen to think if you only like male/male action in fics, you're being sexist a tiny winy bit at the very least!' So, are gay men deep down inside women-haters too? JESUS. This is like when Joy/Riverfox ranted her head off that het fic writers marginalize gay characters and are therefore homophobes or, deep down inside, sorta kinda hate gays or are gay and hate themselves. In some cases -- I'm certain it's true. In the majority? Nope, don't agree. And I told her so, and she didn't like being critisized, but that was just total b.s. I don't think authors owe Joy/Riverfox anything -- she has no right to any expectations -- they write to please themselves and if she doesn't like it, omg, she better get the hell over it and write whatever floats her boat, not bitch at the people doing their own thing.

(Not that you're like that. I don't think you've ever been bitchy about a writer, even when wanking, which impresses me.)If you want to battle sexism, and we all should, let's start with the real world and then maybe if we can walk a fine line, move onto the pretend ones? In fiction, anything goes, every idea, thought, tendency should be freely expressed. Because if you try to eliminate Mien Kampf, pretty soon that line gets blurred and then others are trying to eliminate The Picture of Dorian Grey, The Catcher in the Rye, Huckleberry Finn, Interview with a Vampire, whatever, b/c omg, racist! Sexually perverted! Sacrilegious! Sexist! Violent! Yeah -- but see? It's FICTION. You don't like it, don't read it, it's not hurting anyone and ideas have to be free -- even the ones we find repugnant. Even the ones that push women (blacks, gays, jews, purple pokadotted people eaters) off into the margins. Don't like it? Write something better -- don't expect people to change their ideas/preferences to suit your tastes/politics. That's all I was saying. I'm done now, I really am. Sorry if at any point I spoke with vitriol, I think my previous flip-side discussion made me very defensive. *hugs* Sorry.Love, Roo

[moonlit-page.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by caps warning? Does this mean that when you posted your story, the archivist put it with a big huge warning for the het, and in this way your story was singled out? B/c if that happened then, yes, you were treated differently and that's not cool.

Mien Kampf is very offensive. It's also essential to understanding the brainwashed mentality of an entire racist movement. You won't banish the sentiment by banishing the book. There is no knowledge or thought that is evil -- actions, yes. Thoughts -- those are mine and I will think and have access to whatever thoughts I want -- that's my God given right to freedom of choice. No one gets to tell me what I can't bloody well read or think.

By writing something better, you're affecting change in a bigger, more important, and more positive way -- you're giving something to people who, just like you, want women-centric or gender-equal fiction. But you're not trying to say your fiction is the Right Way and everyone who writes it the Wrong Way should just stop, right now. Cause that would be, you know, oppressive, and that's the very thing you're fighting against, isn't it?

Love, Roo

[liminalliz.livejournal.com]

*crashes party*

I'm confused. It apparently looks like Nos and other het-writers (like I, omg) have just approached this desire to analyze PegB, misogyny in fandom (:uses magic evil word, omg:), and slash vs. het (for the millionth time, cuz it remains fascinating) the wrong way...? Or maybe we shouldn't think at all about fandom, and as you say, drop fandom-thinking and do something more important with our lives that helps the women of the world? I like that idea, yes, as we should be doing something other than wanking off to fandom; however, people are also shaped by fandom, opinions therein and the people they meet and talk to. Yes, we all have the strength of mind to believe what we want to believe, but fandom does influence some part, some facet of our selves and we do injustice to our personalities and thinking patterns to *not* have discussions and arguements, hell, flame wars of doom over reasonable issues like this. Yay for thinking. Keeps the blood pumping if anything.

/two cents.

[moonlit-page.livejournal.com]

have just approached this desire to analyze... the wrong way...?

You mean with a pre-determined sense of slasher response and feedback abuse/neglect to ship fic, an intellectually condescending attitude toward fic writers with specific preferences for their sexual fantasies, and a morally superior way of speaking about what you believe to be the correct way to portray women in fiction? No. Not at all. Why would anyone object to that way of analysis?

Or maybe we should put more effort into fixing the marginalization of women in the real world, and let people's personal works of fiction be whatever they want to be, and if we don't like it, we write something to counteract what's already available, instead of complaining that what's offered to us just doesn't suit what we'd like to read? My Jack and Daniel-centric fics oppress you and women everywhere... how?

Then again, Nos was writing her own thoughts on her own journal. It's her right to talk about this however she wants -- I just really, really object to being lumped under misogynist b/c I don't prefer to read about women having sex in (some of) my fandoms.

Now. I really gotta bug out of this conversation. There can't be a win-win, and I'm not out to 'defeat' you or change your minds, I just wanted to clarify what I was suggesting to Nos. I'm gonna go play in my own sandbox now. I know I'm not a misogynist and if you want to think of me as one b/c I like slash exclusively, okay then. I'll live.
Love, Roo

[moonlit-page.livejournal.com]

Fiction is fantasy. Reality is the real world. Fantasy harms no one. Reality affects everyone.

NOT CHANGE WHAT IS ALREADY WRITTEN -- WRITE SOMETHING NEW. Change by example. Let others write what they write, you write what you think is a good, non-misogynistic fic and lead by example. No one should get to decide what's 'correct' for other people to enjoy when they read.

Honestly. How do my Jack and Daniel fics possibly opress you and women everywhere? I can't see it -- please, I'm honestly asking sincerely -- give me examples of how it does?
Love, Roo

[liminalliz.livejournal.com]

You mean with a pre-determined sense of slasher response and feedback abuse/neglect to ship fic, an intellectually condescending attitude toward fic writers with specific preferences for their sexual fantasies, and a morally superior way of speaking about what you believe to be the correct way to portray women in fiction? No. Not at all. Why would anyone object to that way of analysis?
...well, we're not all as broad-minded as you. We only speak from our (limited and childish) experiences in fandom in cruel ways to invite general anger and distress.

But seriously, we analyze because... it's what we do? I know it's lame ass answer stolen from the very show that we're discussing. But yeah. I like to analyze, sorry if it offends you. *sends you cake*

Like nos says, fandom *is* culture. So I'm playing here today, the world tomorrow.

This is certainly not a win-win situation nor are any of us going to be truly influenced by the other; but we're still reading and writing and listening to some level and that's progress, if only a baby step.

[moonlit-page.livejournal.com]

hey. i'm not offended that you want to analyze. it's what i do for a living -- i analyze text for mythological and social signifigance. it's a good thing. what worries me is, the people saying there's misogyny in fic and it must be rooted out? okay, so according to you (and me, for the record), misogyny=bad, therefore it must be erradicated. so let's pretend enough people get up in arms about it, that no characters are misogynistic, no storylines are male-centric, all the female characters have equal time and are kick ass and well rounded, and the writers love women. b/c it's 2005 and oppression or exclusion of minorities is bad. (if this were 1905, the inclusion of gay men would be bad and in fact earn us a prison sentence, but we're way more enlightened and therefore our modern day opinions about what's morally responsible and ethically correct in literature is totally okay, right?) but let's say someone else, like the religious right, says, homosexuality=bad, it perverts children, it turns people gay, it breaks up homes, it's disgusting, it's unnatural. it offends them. so enough people get up in arms about it, and no characters are gay, no storylines are homosexual-centric, all the characters have healthy heterosexual relationships with really perfect sex. and the writers all reject gays. okay, and then? someone says bestiality=bad. stories that don't have a representative from all races and ages=bad. stories with alcoholics=bad. rape fic=bad. NC-17 fic=bad. copyright violating fanfiction=bad. [insert any topic someone might find offensive]=bad. and now we've wiped the offensive tendencies out of our reading material. and everyone is happy. they're bored, b/c all the stories are poltically correct and uninteresting, but since we're so busy controlling what thoughts, styles, and subject matter they're exposed to, they probably won't get up in arms about being bored. unless someone writes an offensive fic about it.

or maybe... maybe thoughts and words should be the one place on earth where everyone is totally equal, totally free -- free to fuck up, free to be an asshole, free to be exclusionary, free to be ground breaking, free to fantasize about whatever they want and share it with others who may or may not accept it -- we could all just let people like what they like... so long as they don't physically harm anybody? i'm being serious.

maybe i'm not making my point well. i certainly would feel really really bad if you or nos felt picked on (why are the other posts here deleted?) i just want to make you see what i see -- there are plenty of people who hate women. but just because someone likes to read male/male sex and not really dabble in anything else? that doesn't make them a woman hater. and yes, there are plenty of places where ship (or slash) is marginalized, trivialized, put down, flat out flamed. but just b/c there hasn't been ship on PegB before doesn't make the community anti-het. so test the waters first, before circling the wagons and making claims based on past experience.

and between you and me, if ANYONE gives you shit for liking what you like, writing what you like, posting what you like, in terms of creative-pretend-fiction? i am the first one in line to kick their ass on your behalf. i'm not a shipper. but i respect shippers and i appreciate ship fic, and anyone who shuts you down for liking what you like? (as opposed to politely ignoring you and focusing on liking what they like?) they need to have a stern talking to. cause that's a sucky action.

love, roo

[moonlit-page.livejournal.com]

ps. my gmail isn't letting me respond to your simpatico quote for some reason, so i just want to say -- 1. the warnings say i will touch on EVERY slash fic cliche before the end of 7 arcs. so jack bitching about carter? an acknowledged cliche i crossed off the list, however 2. it's a total canon fic, i use canon minutes in it, and when i'm dealing with fanon, i give sam (what i think are) some kick ass, well rounded scenes. i also deal with the canon UST shipper vibes. and i hope i portray sam in a cool way, when we get to her POV. i love sam. she's one of the best female characters out there. i get so mad at sam bashers. but yeah, in simpatico, there are going to be times when every member of sg-1 is jealous or resentful of each other. i'm not trying to make a statement about sam or women in regards to homosexual relationships, i'm just trying to humanize/ show all characters have some flaws.
love, roo