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pegasus_b for me.
1. I am hard pressed to believe that slash and ship/het can exist in the same place at the same time without someone's head exploding, but maybe I need my horizons broadened. I'd like to see it happen. I'd like to see someone try.
2. As far as I can tell PegB has an established audience at this point, and that audience tends to like, read and write slash. That's not an accusation that someone set up the community so that it would inherently excluded het/ship writers, it's just the fact of the matter. What I see that as meaning is that there's just not a huge audience for ship/het/femslash there because people aren't interested, except for the teeny tiny group willing to read both, and the slightly larger group willing to read anything well written.
3. I don't think I need PegB to be inclusive. I don't think it should have to be inclusive.
3.b. PegB has a policy if being inclusive, and I think that's fabulous and openminded and brave. However, I do think it's okay to have a space where het/ship/slash/femslash/beastiality is not welcome, or is not widely read by the established audience.
4. I was a lurker for too many years to count, so the idea that there's a silent fan majority? I think that's probably a pretty accurate assesment of readership and fandom.
5. Fandom. Oy.
Some of this showed up elsewhere as comments to f-locked posted within the last few days.
pegasus_b for me. 1. I am hard pressed to believe that slash and ship/het can exist in the same place at the same time without someone's head exploding, but maybe I need my horizons broadened. I'd like to see it happen. I'd like to see someone try.
2. As far as I can tell PegB has an established audience at this point, and that audience tends to like, read and write slash. That's not an accusation that someone set up the community so that it would inherently excluded het/ship writers, it's just the fact of the matter. What I see that as meaning is that there's just not a huge audience for ship/het/femslash there because people aren't interested, except for the teeny tiny group willing to read both, and the slightly larger group willing to read anything well written.
3. I don't think I need PegB to be inclusive. I don't think it should have to be inclusive.
3.b. PegB has a policy if being inclusive, and I think that's fabulous and openminded and brave. However, I do think it's okay to have a space where het/ship/slash/femslash/beastiality is not welcome, or is not widely read by the established audience.
4. I was a lurker for too many years to count, so the idea that there's a silent fan majority? I think that's probably a pretty accurate assesment of readership and fandom.
5. Fandom. Oy.
Some of this showed up elsewhere as comments to f-locked posted within the last few days.
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Yes, Nos, that's exactly what I'm saying. Once we ignore all traces of misogyny in fandom, we can hurry up and write fics about women who get married to a good provider and pop out babies but never ever think about their icky vaginas again, thank God. I'm sure by now you can recognize my sarcasm, but just in case it doesn't translate over the internet -- no. I never said that. But neither should one scream sexism just b/c someone prefers their sexual fantasies to star men and men alone. I'm not sexist just b/c I prefer to read about men. Also? I'm not a banana-hater just b/c I prefer to eat strawberries. I'm ALL for deep thinking on this subject, but jesus, your post (and, even more so, some of the comments the shippers made) were like, 'oh sure, this comm SAYS yes to het, but it's really just a pat on the head, the majority will all scream their heads off or pick on us if we post in het' -- which ended up not being the case at all -- and then, tagging the subject of misogyny onto slashers backs... with no disclaimer, no specifics, just -- 'hey, I happen to think if you only like male/male action in fics, you're being sexist a tiny winy bit at the very least!' So, are gay men deep down inside women-haters too? JESUS. This is like when Joy/Riverfox ranted her head off that het fic writers marginalize gay characters and are therefore homophobes or, deep down inside, sorta kinda hate gays or are gay and hate themselves. In some cases -- I'm certain it's true. In the majority? Nope, don't agree. And I told her so, and she didn't like being critisized, but that was just total b.s. I don't think authors owe Joy/Riverfox anything -- she has no right to any expectations -- they write to please themselves and if she doesn't like it, omg, she better get the hell over it and write whatever floats her boat, not bitch at the people doing their own thing.
(Not that you're like that. I don't think you've ever been bitchy about a writer, even when wanking, which impresses me.)If you want to battle sexism, and we all should, let's start with the real world and then maybe if we can walk a fine line, move onto the pretend ones? In fiction, anything goes, every idea, thought, tendency should be freely expressed. Because if you try to eliminate Mien Kampf, pretty soon that line gets blurred and then others are trying to eliminate The Picture of Dorian Grey, The Catcher in the Rye, Huckleberry Finn, Interview with a Vampire, whatever, b/c omg, racist! Sexually perverted! Sacrilegious! Sexist! Violent! Yeah -- but see? It's FICTION. You don't like it, don't read it, it's not hurting anyone and ideas have to be free -- even the ones we find repugnant. Even the ones that push women (blacks, gays, jews, purple pokadotted people eaters) off into the margins. Don't like it? Write something better -- don't expect people to change their ideas/preferences to suit your tastes/politics. That's all I was saying. I'm done now, I really am. Sorry if at any point I spoke with vitriol, I think my previous flip-side discussion made me very defensive. *hugs* Sorry.Love, Roo
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Mien Kampf is very offensive. It's also essential to understanding the brainwashed mentality of an entire racist movement. You won't banish the sentiment by banishing the book. There is no knowledge or thought that is evil -- actions, yes. Thoughts -- those are mine and I will think and have access to whatever thoughts I want -- that's my God given right to freedom of choice. No one gets to tell me what I can't bloody well read or think.
By writing something better, you're affecting change in a bigger, more important, and more positive way -- you're giving something to people who, just like you, want women-centric or gender-equal fiction. But you're not trying to say your fiction is the Right Way and everyone who writes it the Wrong Way should just stop, right now. Cause that would be, you know, oppressive, and that's the very thing you're fighting against, isn't it?
Love, Roo
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I'm confused. It apparently looks like Nos and other het-writers (like I, omg) have just approached this desire to analyze PegB, misogyny in fandom (:uses magic evil word, omg:), and slash vs. het (for the millionth time, cuz it remains fascinating) the wrong way...? Or maybe we shouldn't think at all about fandom, and as you say, drop fandom-thinking and do something more important with our lives that helps the women of the world? I like that idea, yes, as we should be doing something other than wanking off to fandom; however, people are also shaped by fandom, opinions therein and the people they meet and talk to. Yes, we all have the strength of mind to believe what we want to believe, but fandom does influence some part, some facet of our selves and we do injustice to our personalities and thinking patterns to *not* have discussions and arguements, hell, flame wars of doom over reasonable issues like this. Yay for thinking. Keeps the blood pumping if anything.
/two cents.
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You mean with a pre-determined sense of slasher response and feedback abuse/neglect to ship fic, an intellectually condescending attitude toward fic writers with specific preferences for their sexual fantasies, and a morally superior way of speaking about what you believe to be the correct way to portray women in fiction? No. Not at all. Why would anyone object to that way of analysis?
Or maybe we should put more effort into fixing the marginalization of women in the real world, and let people's personal works of fiction be whatever they want to be, and if we don't like it, we write something to counteract what's already available, instead of complaining that what's offered to us just doesn't suit what we'd like to read? My Jack and Daniel-centric fics oppress you and women everywhere... how?
Then again, Nos was writing her own thoughts on her own journal. It's her right to talk about this however she wants -- I just really, really object to being lumped under misogynist b/c I don't prefer to read about women having sex in (some of) my fandoms.
Now. I really gotta bug out of this conversation. There can't be a win-win, and I'm not out to 'defeat' you or change your minds, I just wanted to clarify what I was suggesting to Nos. I'm gonna go play in my own sandbox now. I know I'm not a misogynist and if you want to think of me as one b/c I like slash exclusively, okay then. I'll live.
Love, Roo
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NOT CHANGE WHAT IS ALREADY WRITTEN -- WRITE SOMETHING NEW. Change by example. Let others write what they write, you write what you think is a good, non-misogynistic fic and lead by example. No one should get to decide what's 'correct' for other people to enjoy when they read.
Honestly. How do my Jack and Daniel fics possibly opress you and women everywhere? I can't see it -- please, I'm honestly asking sincerely -- give me examples of how it does?
Love, Roo
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...well, we're not all as broad-minded as you. We only speak from our (limited and childish) experiences in fandom in cruel ways to invite general anger and distress.
But seriously, we analyze because... it's what we do? I know it's lame ass answer stolen from the very show that we're discussing. But yeah. I like to analyze, sorry if it offends you. *sends you cake*
Like nos says, fandom *is* culture. So I'm playing here today, the world tomorrow.
This is certainly not a win-win situation nor are any of us going to be truly influenced by the other; but we're still reading and writing and listening to some level and that's progress, if only a baby step.
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or maybe... maybe thoughts and words should be the one place on earth where everyone is totally equal, totally free -- free to fuck up, free to be an asshole, free to be exclusionary, free to be ground breaking, free to fantasize about whatever they want and share it with others who may or may not accept it -- we could all just let people like what they like... so long as they don't physically harm anybody? i'm being serious.
maybe i'm not making my point well. i certainly would feel really really bad if you or nos felt picked on (why are the other posts here deleted?) i just want to make you see what i see -- there are plenty of people who hate women. but just because someone likes to read male/male sex and not really dabble in anything else? that doesn't make them a woman hater. and yes, there are plenty of places where ship (or slash) is marginalized, trivialized, put down, flat out flamed. but just b/c there hasn't been ship on PegB before doesn't make the community anti-het. so test the waters first, before circling the wagons and making claims based on past experience.
and between you and me, if ANYONE gives you shit for liking what you like, writing what you like, posting what you like, in terms of creative-pretend-fiction? i am the first one in line to kick their ass on your behalf. i'm not a shipper. but i respect shippers and i appreciate ship fic, and anyone who shuts you down for liking what you like? (as opposed to politely ignoring you and focusing on liking what they like?) they need to have a stern talking to. cause that's a sucky action.
love, roo
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love, roo